![SASC - Student Academic Success Center - UNE [logo]](https://files.uneportfolio.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2022/02/SASCLogoSquare_Smaller-3-e1644936452801.jpeg)
Birkenstein and Graff
In a comment on this post, use some piece of Gee’s “Discourse” theory to explain how using Gerald Graff’s and Cathy Birkenstein’s templates could “help your writing become more original and creative” (Graff and Birkenstein 11). What would Gee say about how having pre-set templates empower you to be more creative as a thinker and writer? What would he say about how using these templates might help you become more fluent in the academic Discourse practice of using writing to “deeply engage in some way with other people’s views” (Graff and Birkenstein 3)?
Be sure to:
- Briefly summarize Graff’s and Birkenstein’s overall point in “Entering the Conversation,”
- Use one or more of the paraphrase and quotation templates from Ch. 3 to explain what “they say” and to connect what Gee says to what they say,
- Offer your own “I say” point to close the comment.
Graff and Birkeinstein’s passage in “Entering the conversation” is talking about how you can use the work of others to help prove or make a point of yours stronger. It also goes on to talking about using templates to help lay out the foundation of your idea and help give the person the an easier way to write down what they are trying to say.
Hi Kenny, solid start to the paragraph, but your entrance to your summary of G&B is a little awkward. Try using one of the Introducing Quotations templates on pp. 46-47 of They Say/I Say.
Once you get the most essential of G&B’s points summarized, you’ll need to go one and connect to Gee.
In the piece done by Graff and Birkenstein from They Say, I Say they talk about templates stifling creativity. They also discuss how using this template may cause you to not entirely think the way you should when writing a piece. They said that they could indefinitely help make the text better, however “these templates do not dictate the content of what you say, which can be as original as you can make it, but only suggest a way of formatting how you say it. … Once you get used to using them, you can even dispense with them altogether, for the rhetorical moves they model will be at your fingertips in an unconscious, instinctive way “(Graff and Birkenstein 11). Their thoughts upon writing on discourse is that it may be up to you on how you write it, and may be up to you on how it can be done. According to Gee he says that Discourse is under its way of being “maladapted” (Gee 12). For all of these writers they probably didn’t follow a prompt, they might have done some pre writing, but not an outline. Or am I just depicting what my role as a reading should really think and changing it all around?
I think the first half of this comment where you’re summarzing G&B is pretty strong, if a little awkward. You’re certainly capturing the most important parts of their ideas. You might smooth things out a bit by trying one of their introducing quotations templates (TS/IS pp. 46-7) and choosing strong reporting verbs (TS/IS, pp. 39-40): In “Entering the Conversation,” Graff and Birkenstein reply to the critique that their templates might stifle creativity.
I’m not quite following the connection to Gee. So I’ll need more help from you to understand the T2T connection.
Graff’s and Birkenstein’s main point in the introduction was to give you ways and get you to think about how to engage with others correctly. In other words, Graff’s and Birkenstein’s point is “The central piece of advice in this book – that we listen carefully to others, including those who disagree with us and then engage with them thoughtfully and respectfully”
Solid start, Ian. I like especially how you set up the quote in the second sentence with a statement of purpose (in other words) and a signal phrase. I look forward to more.
Graff and Birkenstein talk start off the passage by making a comparison to being good at different types of things. They say how you could be good at something and that basically it becomes second nature to you (for example, playing the piano). The same thing really does apply to writing. Then they start to talk about he key premises such as basic moves represented in templates to structure and generate your own ideas of writing. “They Say” are conventional ways introducing what others are saying. For example, “Gee says you cannot overtly teach anyone a Discourse, in a classroom or anywhere else”. I disagree with Gee’s view that you cant learn those discourses in the classrooms because I believe that you can.
I think you picked a solid piece of Gee to put in conversation with B&G, but I’m not sure the piece of B&G you picked connects to the specific point about overt instruction you’re making with Gee. I do think B&G’s recommending of explicit templates might be understood as a kind of “overt instruction.”
I think maybe you’re approach to summary relies on taking the original piece (in this case B&G’s essay) in the same sequence it appears on the page. If so, you should instead decide what their most important point is and summarize that – even if it’s not their first point.
Have a look at some of the templates for introducing quotations on pp. 46-7 of TS/IS. Can you make any of them work here, even if you have to modify them somewhat?
As Graff and Birkenstein’s overall point in entering the conversation is from my view is,”If you reflect on this activity, you’ll realize that once you have mastered it you no longer have to give much conscience thought into the various moves going into it.” I feel that this point explains Gee’s primary discourse. The first examples and explanations that shape your actions from previous experiences that shape the individual into whom they are today, “Discourse is a sort of “identity kit”.” The “Identity kit” is the view of other reflection on yourself. The overall experiences that taught the individuals first morals and correct assumptions. Their fist beliefs and understandings reflecting on where they came from and why they think or act the way they do.
Hi Myles, that opening sentence is a bit jumbled. You might use one of the templates to introduce a quotation (TS/IS, pp. 46-7) to help clean it up. Also, it looks like you’re trying to get summary of G&B’s point blended with an idea of your own in that fitrst sentence, which is probably contributing to the problem. First do the “they say” and summarize G&B’s point, then do the I say and make your response. If you need to, you could double up the they say before adding your I say: “G&B say ________. Gee agrees, saying ________. I say __________.”
You might also replace generic signal verbs such as “say” or “write” with more communicative ones. See the lists of signal verbs in TS/IS pp. 39-40, and Little Seagull p. 103.
In the chapter “Entering the Conversation” by Graff and Birkenstein. We see a section of text that is all about whether having different templates takes away from ones creativity. They dictate the idea that templates don’t control what you say in them. Its similar to a coloring book they give you the outline but let you control the colors that you put on the page. Graff and Birkenstein write “templates do not dictate the content of what you say, which can be as original as you can make it. ” They ultimately have come up with the notion that you are the powerful writer and the templates are just tools that you can use. The interesting thing is that when looking at Gee we see him say “It is not just what you say, but how you say it.” What he means by this is that students should not only think about how you write, but also how you say it.
While a little choppy, I can see you working towards a quick summary of G&B, and making a connection to Gee. I can also see you’re not quite finished which is Ok.
You might clean up the choppiness by putting actors and ideas close together and handling citation a little more fluently. Like this: In “Entering the Conversation,” Graff and Birkenstein answer the criticism that sentence templates limit a writer’s creativity. They explain that….
There are several sentence templates that demonstrate how to lead into quotes on pp.46-47 of TS/IS.
Notice that I’m choosing my reporting verbs (here: answer, and explain, see TS/IS pp. 39-40) carefully, as well.
Gerald Graff and Cathy Birkenstein’s templates to “help your writing become more original and creative” relates to Gee’s Discourse theory because Gee claims that Discourses are acquired by learning a new skill. Acquiring a new skill would help your writing become more original and creative because you would have new knowledge as well as new experiences which both would help you expand your writing. I think Gee would approve of the pre-set templates because they would help you with metaknowledge, or looking back on previous experiences and applying them to the current idea.
I’m interested in the idea near the end, Blake, that templates could help someone acquire metaknowledge, and therefore help them better manipulate the Discourse. How would that work?
Two things: when summarizing the they say, you don’t necessarily need to connect the two texts right away. You might introduce G&B first, then Gee. Have a look at the Introducing Quotes templates on pp. 46-7 of They Say/I Say. Also, don’t forget page references for paraphrased or quoted texts.
Graff and Birkeinstein’s passage in “Entering the conversation” is saying that you can use what other people have written about to make your argument better. They say that comparing and contrasting different views and ideas on a topic can help make a stronger point. They also give us templates to use, one set for example are on ways of responding.
James Paul Gee
Good start, Michaela; I”ll look forward to seeing more. Don’t forget to point to page references for passages that you paraphrase.
Consider reversing the citational elements in your opening sentence and choosing a more communicative signal verb (They Say/I Say pp. 49-40; Little Seagull pp.103-4) to improve it: In “Entering the Conversation,” Graff and Birkeinstein signal verb __________.
Gee, about the pre-set template, would say that you should use a template to learn how to write. Through his discourse theory he says you can only learn from personal experience and from mentors who have mastered what you are trying to learn. If a master creates a template and lets you experience filling out for yourself you can learn the academic discourse.
Ciara, I know you came in late, so you might have missed the emphasis on starting with what Graff and Birkenstein say. On the upside, you’ve picked a useful part of Gee to make sense of their argument. Don’t forget to use page references to point your reader to the passages you’re paraphrasing here. We want to avoid patchwriting if we can.
Some of the awkwardness in your initial signal phrase reference to Gee could be improved by trying a variation of one of the Introducing Quotes templates on pp. 46-47.
Good writing takes a lot from other people. Language must be accepted at its most basic of forms as a template that all are free to use and manipulate. The deeper the writing goes, the more connections and influences the piece takes on. In an essay, you need to see life from the opposing views and even the views that agree with your own. Look at arguments from other perspectives and find your own thoughts on them. And then after the templates and hearing what other people have to say, say your own piece. This is the part that makes it unique to you.
Gee claims that Discourse is more than simply language and that agrees with what they say about traditional views of language and 5-paragraph essays being too limiting. Both make the claim that literacy to more than the structured sentences that are taught. Oh the other hand, they say that it is fitting to use templates. This could be connected to what Gee is saying about Discourses and mushfake, using similar patterns and words to fit in with the traditional or fitting Discourse of the room.
Both pieces have interesting views on language and certainly have lot to offer. But I find myself shying away from them. Gee makes writing seem too harsh and limited. As do they in the recommendation of using standardized templates. But I do agree with what they both say about it being an unconscious act. Once we are proficient at something, it becomes mindless. So of course we don’t recognize stringing the same words together and forming the most familiar of phrases with few words swapped out between arguments. They are words that we have become the most familiar with. The actions that we all know and repeat.
Hi Cali, Graff and Birkenstein argue that the templates they recommend make emerging writers -more- creative by helping them make moves they’re not yet capable of making without support. What part of Gee’s theory supports their argument?
I’m also interested in the way you point to “mushfake.” How would that concept apply in this situation?
I notice that you don’t refer to Graff and Birkenstein by name when you’re summarizing their view in the first paragraph. That might lead a reader to mistake their view for yours.